Catholics and NAM:Reply to Looking Glass Posts

Marguerite F · Post by **Marguerite F** » Mon Jul 11, 2005 9:38 pm

Great discussions!!

I would like to clarify a point made by Chris. While it is true that there are elements of the NAM (usually higher up the economical food chain) that "have Utopian/Marxists" type dreams and plans, the average NAMer doesn't think that way. (you know, Joe 6-Pack w/ a crystal necklace)

They are more like the stero-typical "tree huggers" drugs, sex and peace.
How they want, when they want with whoever they want as much as they want with no rules and all morality is relative to what "I" want.

In my experience NAM has NEVER embodied Islam nor Catholicism percisely because they both have RULES that have to be followed.
Buddhism,Hindism, Zorastorism and Janism are more nebulous and free in 'theology' and therefore more a part of NAM thinkology.

The higher ups in NAM tend to be Masons and Scientologists. They wreck lives and systems through the transfer of money and resources. This is not to exclude the possibility that , at some point, they would not consider "funding" terrorist activity to meet their end.

Hitler, for example, was an occultist. You would be shocked to know exactly how he was funded. The trail leads from England, Russia and even to the US. But you won't find that in today's history books. It is, however, a matter of public/financial record. The money trail has been traced and checked out by many authors.

Of course, I don't believe that even his backers expected the autrosities he laid out.

"If you bow down and worship me, I'll give you all of the kingdoms of the world"

Follow the money....find the "Prince"

Great discussions. Thanks to all.
St. Michael, Defend us in Battle.
Pray for those in the London blasts and for our continued safety.

Marguerite

KarlB · Post by **KarlB** » Thu Jul 14, 2005 10:35 am

In my experience NAM has NEVER embodied Islam nor Catholicism percisely because they both have RULES that have to be followed

I'd note here that there tends to a tendency these days to lump together the 'monotheistic religions', those with a scripturally articulated morality, from NAM. But this can be taken too far. One can say that if you accept there is only one God, then both Christians and Muslims worship the same Deity. But this overlooks the fact that religions do not 'define' God, they define man's relationship with God. In that sense Islam and Christianity are polar opposites of each other. Christianity's whole thrust through the Old and New Testaments, and Church doctrine, builds on the fundamental precepts layed out in the first chapter of Genesis.. that Creation is 'good', and that man is created in the image of God. This lead directly to the realization in the New Testament of God becoming Man. The Qu'ran utterly rejects the notion. Islam does not use the Old Testament in its canon, it's sole source is the Qu'ran, which is full of deviations from the original texts (including a strange, magical exposition of the story of Jesus). It could not stand with the the original scriptures (such as the 10 commandments) without creating complete contradictions in themes and obligations.

Islam will always be a religion of the masses, in many ways its conception of the individual is very close to that of communism. The person is a cell in the organism of the community, individuality is submerged into the society as a whole. The person submits completely to an unknowable God, his relationship defined soley by rigid rules which deny an individual's personal relationship with God and that relationship being characterised as perfecting oneself in imitation. There is nothing to imitate is Islam, there is only unquestioning submission. The whole conception of creation in Islam resembles the Cathar heresy of the middle ages, which saw a 'good' spiritual domain and an inextricably corrupt natural one, in constant combat with each other. It denies the influence of reason to reconcile and lead the person to an understanding of the moral architecture of natural law. Much of the situation of today's terrorism, with its dependance on random acts of suicidal murder has to be understood in those terms.

Lori · Post by **Lori** » Thu Jul 14, 2005 11:30 am

Karl,

That was a great post. My ignorance is great concerning Islam. Can you please elaborate even more on the differences between Catholicism and Islam?

For example, how would one answer the following questions from the Islamic point of view?

1. Who made us?

2. Who is God?

3. Why did God make us?

4. What must we do to gain the happiness of Heaven?

5. From whom do we learn to know, love, and serve God?

Karl, I am not sure if you know but my husband is in Afghanistan and he has told me some really strange things about what is going on there. I am always a bit confused because I thought that they were "religious."

Thanks,

Lori

KarlB · Post by **KarlB** » Thu Jul 14, 2005 12:50 pm

Karl, I am not sure if you know but my husband is in Afghanistan and he has told me some really strange things about what is going on there. I am always a bit confused because I thought that they were "religious

I was aware of that Lori, I know he's been decorated for bravery in rescuing an Afghan from a minefield. My prayers are with him.

I don't pretend I'm a theological expert and certainly only an observer of Islam, but here is my take on those questions.

1. Who made us?

Both Christians and Muslims would say God made us.. God is the Creator and we are creatures.

2. Who is God?

I'm not sure a Muslim would answer that. The question itself might be considered heretical. I have never seen any inclination in Islam to have an independent theology, define that as the 'science' of God, beyond strict observance of the Qu'ran. Compare that to the intense theological development of Catholicism. What little historical philosophical inquiry existed in Islam fizzled out by the Middle Ages, under the prosecution by the Imams.

3. Why did God make us?

A Christian might answer to share the beauty of creation with us, and to love us as we love Him. There is no acknowledgement of these things in Islam. Man exists to submit, to obey.. not to question. There is little in Islam to reflect any relationship between man and God, than that of nuisance to an omnipotent and vindictive God. I won't deny that Islam does call for things that Christians consider reverant, for prayer, for charity.. but that has to be taken into consideration within the numbing subversion of individuality that is at the core of Islam. The same individuality, defined by dialectic between free will and the will to reconcile with God through repentance and forgiveness of sin, and, perfecting oneself in Christ's image, that is at the very core of the Christian's salvific mission.

4. What must we do to gain the happiness of Heaven?

To the Christian it is to love God with all your heart, and to love your neighbour as yourself. You could say that perfection is realized most perfectly in Jesus Christ. The 10 commandments are neatly summarized in the Golden Rule, do unto others... . To the Muslim, again.. to submit and to obey. The conceptions of heaven become much different as well. Many of the suicide bombers that have been unleashed in the last decade have done so because they were promised a harem of 70 virgins in a palace of utter indulgence. Even in Islam these people tend to be very young and very naive to believe that the reward in heaven is of something that is a complete contradiction to that which is considered a reverent life on earth.

5. From whom do we learn to know, love, and serve God?

Again, our image is Christ. The word love in relation to God is not really used in Islam. Service is defined as obedience and that God is definitely not 'knowable'. Christians can at least estimate the character and motives of God through the Trinity, if they can't comprehend His limits. Hope that was helpful.

Pax
Karl

ChristopherD · Post by **ChristopherD** » Fri Jul 15, 2005 7:22 pm

KarlB wrote:To the Muslim, again.. to submit and to obey. The conceptions of heaven become much different as well. Many of the suicide bombers that have been unleashed in the last decade have done so because they were promised a harem of 70 virgins in a palace of utter indulgence. Even in Islam these people tend to be very young and very naive to believe that the reward in heaven is of something that is a complete contradiction to that which is considered a reverent life on earth.

From what I have read, a Muslim's concept of "heaven" is more of a worldly paradise. It is extremely physical or carnal in its essence. It usually consists of the idea of a harem, a feast, etc., I guess something like the ancient Roman orgy. And there is no actualy relationship with Allah. It almost seems like, once you have submitted in this life, you are rewarded and never have to deal with Allah again. And many Muslims would probably believe that women do not even go to "heaven." They are often just considered property in Islamic "theology."

As for Catholics, Heaven is a full communion with God. It is being united to the Trinitarian Love between Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, through Jesus Christ. This is getting into some deep systematics of Trinitarian Theology, which is very difficult to explain. I am not sure if that is a good explaination, but it is worth a shot.

Post by **Denise** » Fri Jul 15, 2005 7:34 pm

It usually consists of the idea of a harem, a feast, etc.,

From good sources who know and I cannot name, these harems of virgins could possibly be men and not women as one would think.

Denise

Marguerite F · Post by **Marguerite F** » Sat Jul 16, 2005 10:44 am

It is also very important to note here that Christianity, Ortodoyx Hebrewism (as opposed to modern Judism) and Islam all have roots in the Old Testement.

Remember when Hagar was banished into the desert?(Genesis 16 and 21) She has with her a "First Born Son" of Abraham, Ismael. (also spelled Ishmael) And he was, in fact, a first born. Hagar wasn't stupid. She basically "called out to God" on his promise to "First Born Sons", in that they would receive some type of inheritance. And our good God complied with, "From him will come many nations". Scripture states, "God was with them" (some translations..."with him") In fact, there are 12 tribes of Ismael! Yes, they settled EAST of Egypt and each of Ismaels sons were tribal chiefs. (refer to Isaiah, Ezekiel,Jeremiah also check Genesis 25:12-18) Anyway, modern day Afaganistan, Iran, Iraq and Palestine are all related and inter-related to these tribes. AND...

One of these Arabic nation's religions is Islam. (note the root aramaic "Ism")

So while Catholics, Jews and Islamics do not at all share basic religious dogma, (except that they all DO have a set of rules and codes that are insisted upon) they DO share in basic paternity.

Interesting to note: While Shaloem (or Shalom) in Hebrew means "peace" also from the same liguistic base you get the word "Islam" which means peace by compliance. It is NOT the same type of peace. It seems that many of todays newscasters tend to miss this difference. (?)

Much of the turmoil in the Middle East has, for centruies, centered around this "Birthright of the First Born". It all stems back to the Old Testement.

Blessings,
Marguerite
St. Michael,Defend us in Battle