The Terrifying THIRD SECRET of FATIMA

[MarieT]

Before you read this ridiculous commentary by a dissident priest who is suspended a divinis, I want to alert you to some facts.

1. The Third Secret has been revealed and whenever you hear someone say that it hasn't they are nuts and are calling Pope John Paul II, Sister Lucia and even Pope Benedict liars.

2. This is not the only dissident article on the web. There are many lunatic fringe sites purporting similiar messages. Marie obviously wants us to see how ridiculous some people are and it is important to know what the enemy is thinking so as to help them and others they infect.

3. Pray for them. They need it.

Blessings,

Lori


The Third Secret Predicts:

World War III and Worse?

The Fatima Crusader Interviews Father Paul Kramer


Introduction

Many Catholics remember the startlingly candid remarks of Mother Angelica on the Eternal Word Television Network concerning the vision of the Third Secret disclosed by the Vatican on June 26, 2000. Mother Angelica said to her national television audience on May 16, 2001:


As for the Secret, I happen to be one of those individuals who thinks we didn't get the whole thing - Because I think it's scary ...

Mother Angelica, like millions of Catholics the world over, found it hard to believe that an obscure vision of a "bishop dressed in white" hobbling past the dead bodies of bishops, priests and laity outside a half-ruined city, and then being executed by a band of soldiers, is all there is to a Secret that had been kept under lock and key by the Vatican for more than forty years.

For one thing, where are the "words of the Virgin" - mentioned by the Vatican itself in its 1960 announcement suppressing the Secret - which would explain this vision? How did the Pope and his bishops end up in a situation where they were slaughtered? Is the half-ruined city none other than the devastated city of Rome from which the Pope flees over the dead bodies of his subjects, as Pius X is said to have foreseen in his own prophetic vision?

Father Paul Kramer, who has studied the facts and circumstances of the Third Secret for some thirty-five years, agrees with Mother Angelica that the Third Secret is indeed scary - and far scarier than Catholics have generally understood.


Father Kramer has concluded from his research that the Third Secret foretells much more than the apostasy in the Church that begins "at the top," as revealed by Cardinal Ciappi, the papal theologian to five consecutive Popes, (from Pius XII to John Paul II) who read the Secret. That much was indicated clearly by what Fatima scholars unanimously agree is the beginning of the Third Secret starting with the "words of the Virgin": "In Portugal, the dogma of the faith will always be preserved" to which Sister Lucy added "etc." to indicate that more words of Our Lady would follow in the Third Secret.


Beyond this, says Father Kramer, the "words of the Virgin" suppressed by the Vatican in 1960 do indeed explain how the Pope comes to be executed outside the half-ruined city.

That event is the culmination of a series of catastrophic events, including not only the calling of Vatican II and its being hijacked by modernist liberals within the Church structures. The Third Secret also foretells what we are now living through, namely the aftermath of Vatican II and World War III that possibly leaves Rome in ruins.

In this interview for The Fatima Crusader, Father Kramer shows how the missing words of the Virgin must complete a puzzle whose pieces are already available to us from reliable sources, including the late Pope John Paul II himself. Let the reader prayerfully consider in his heart, Father Kramer's research into the voices of Catholic prophecy that foretell our immediate future.


Interview with Father Kramer

The Fatima Crusader (FC): Why do you think the Third Secret of Fatima reveals even more than the apostasy in the Church "beginning at the top," as Cardinal Ciappi revealed?

Father Kramer: First of all, the Third Secret "vision" published by the Vatican in June of 2000 reveals a material as well as a spiritual catastrophe: slain bishops, priests, religious and laity, a half-ruined city, and the Pope being executed by soldiers at the foot of a large wooden cross outside that half-ruined city.

Let us recall Cardinal Ratzinger's (now Pope Benedict XVI) revealing 1984 interview in Jesus magazine in which he discussed the Third Secret, which he acknowledged he had read.

In that interview the Cardinal revealed more than perhaps he intended. He connected three elements together: the Third Secret, Sacred Scripture and other Marian apparitions approved by the Church as authentic. As he said in 1984 - and I quote him exactly - "the things contained in this -Third Secret - correspond to what has been announced in Scripture, and has been said again and again in many other Marian apparitions ..."

So, there can be no doubt, we have it from the currently reigning Pope's own mouth, that what is in the Third Secret corresponds to what is in Scripture and also to what has been revealed again and again in other Marian apparitions. That is our key.

Now, it is obvious that the vision of "the bishop dressed in white" is far from explicit enough to contain all by itself - without any explanatory words of the Virgin Mary - the elements of Sacred Scripture and the "many other Marian apparitions" the current Pope alluded to when he was still Cardinal Ratzinger.

Indeed, none of the recognized Marian apparitions involves a vision of the Pope being executed outside a half-ruined city. So, already we know that something major is missing from the Vatican's June 2000 disclosure.

FC: But where do we go to find what is missing?

Father Kramer: We begin our search by studying what others who have read the Third Secret have said about it, and they have given us some very telling clues.

For example, the late Malachi Martin read the Secret. I heard the story told by one of his close personal friends. One day in 1960 Martin, who was then personal secretary to Cardinal Bea in Rome, found himself riding in a car with Pope John XXIII and Cardinal Bea. So there were four men present in the car: the driver, Pope John, Cardinal Bea and Malachi Martin.

Now, since Malachi Martin was personal secretary to Cardinal Bea and was also a close collaborator with John XXIII, it was hardly surprising that Malachi found himself in this position. And during this car ride Pope John himself, on that day in 1960, handed the Secret to Malachi. It was written on one sheet of paper - not the four sheets of paper produced by the Vatican in 2000. Malachi read the Secret immediately, and on many occasions thereafter he spoke of the Third Secret even though he was under oath not to divulge explicitly its contents. But when other people touched upon matters in the Secret he would say yes or no, whether that was in the Secret or not.

FC: Can you provide an example of this?

Father Kramer: For example, in his last live interview in the late 1990's on the Art Bell show, before millions of listeners, Malachi said that there is something terribly horrifying in the Third Secret, and he admitted that yes, there will be a world war and a great disaster in which many people will die. But, he added, there is something even more horrifying than this in the Secret, although he did not state explicitly what that was. [Editor's Note: Father Kramer speaks more about this "horrifying thing" later in this interview.]

FC: We have long heard of statements by John Paul II in Fulda, Germany, in 1980 concerning the true contents of the Third Secret. What do you know of this?

Father Kramer: Yes, Pope John Paul II did give us a clue as to what the contents are. In November 1980 he visited Germany at the Cathedral of Fulda, and there he spoke of the Third Secret to a small group. He was asked why the Secret had not yet been revealed, and he gave some answers.

First, the Pope said it has not been revealed because with this knowledge comes responsibility and so many people just want to know for reasons of curiosity. So, in order to avoid sensationalism, he did not want to reveal the contents of the Third Secret.

But then - and here we begin to see that the Secret involves even more than apostasy in the Church - he also said it is enough for you to know that entire regions of the earth will be inundated, with water overflowing large regions of the earth, and millions will die from one moment to the next.

FC: Did the Pope say anything else at Fulda?

Father Kramer: Yes, he said that another reason he did not want to reveal the Third Secret - and this was a key clue in my investigation of the question - is that he did not want to encourage the communists to take certain steps. Now what steps could he be referring to? Well, we can surmise very clearly that one thing that would encourage the communists is a revelation that they would win the World War that Malachi Martin referred to in the Art Bell interview.

FC: But how do we know that the accounts of what the Pope said at Fulda are accurate?

Father Kramer: Some people have questioned whether Pope John Paul II actually made those statements about the Third Secret at Fulda. But that objection cannot be sustained. First of all, there was a lady journalist who took down all the Holy Father's words and published a transcript in a magazine called Stimme des Glaubens [Voice of Faith]. The Vatican has never questioned the accuracy of the quotations in that article. Then there was a second witness, a German priest, who also wrote down word for word what the Pope had said on that occasion. And afterwards he told the Pope he had done this and the Pope thanked him for it.

Now, I speak and read German myself, and I read the German text prepared by the German priest when I was traveling near Fulda back in 1983. The Mother Superior of a German community of nuns showed me the text and it was identical to the text that had been published by the lady journalist. So, the German priest and the lady journalist gave identical testimony concerning what the Pope said at Fulda. So, either they took it down in shorthand or else had tape recorded the Pope's address. But word-for-word the texts were identical. So, I don't think there can be any serious challenge to the authenticity of the Pope's remarks at Fulda.

FC: But how do the Pope's revelations at Fulda relate to Scripture and the other Marian apparitions referred to by Cardinal Ratzinger in 1984?

Father Kramer: This is where the pieces of the Third Secret puzzle begin to fit together. First, as to the "other Marian apparitions" Cardinal Ratzinger spoke of, we have the approved Marian apparition of Our Lady of Good Success at Quito, Ecuador in 1634. In this apparition Our Lady warned of precisely what the Third Secret predicts: a great apostasy in the Church. Our Lady told Venerable Mother Mariana de Jesus Torres that in the late 19th Century and throughout most of the 20th Century the Church would yield to a great heresy. The Sacrament of Matrimony "will be attacked and profaned," and "Masonry, which will then be in power, will enact iniquitous laws with the objective of doing away with this Sacrament, making it easy for everyone to live in sin, encouraging the procreation of illegitimate children born without the blessing of the Church."

Then, Our Lady warned, "The Christian spirit will rapidly decay, extinguishing the precious light of Faith until it reaches the point that there will be an almost total and general corruption of customs (morals), and this will result in the lack of priestly and religious vocations ..."

Our Lady of Good Success further warned that during this time "Innocence will almost no longer be found in children, nor modesty in women" and that "the secular [diocesan] Clergy will leave much to be desired because priests will become careless in their sacred duties - Lacking a Prelate and Father to guide them with paternal love, gentleness, strength, wisdom and prudence, many priests will lose their spirit, placing their souls in great danger."

But then, in a direct parallel to the Triumph of the Immaculate Heart, Our Lady of Good Success declared that this darkest time in Church history "will mark the arrival of My hour" and that God will eventually "bring to an end those ominous times, sending to this Church the Prelate who will restore the spirit of its priests."

So we see here a close parallel with what is undoubtedly revealed in the Third Secret concerning the apostasy of the Church, to be followed at some point by the Consecration of Russia, Russia's conversion and, "in the end" the triumph of the Immaculate Heart. This much Fatima scholars have already surmised concerning the Third Secret.

FC: Agreed, but what of the other elements of the Third Secret alluded to by John Paul II and Malachi Martin, those going beyond the spiritual chastisement and involving a material chastisement, including a world war?

Father Kramer: This is precisely where the Marian apparitions complete the puzzle by adding the element of a material chastisement to that of the spiritual chastisement.

In 1973 and for several years thereafter, at Akita, Japan, Our Lady appeared in a series of apparitions approved as authentic by the local bishop after eight years of investigations. Most tellingly, Cardinal Ratzinger, as Prefect of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, himself adjudged the apparitions worthy of belief in 1988, and he was clearly aware of these apparitions when he gave the Jesus magazine interview.

In fact, Catholic World News reported on October 11, 2001 that Howard Dee, former Philippine ambassador to the Vatican, said in a 1998 interview with Inside the Vatican magazine that "Bishop Ito [the local bishop of Akita, now de- ceased] was certain Akita was an extension of Fatima, and Cardinal Ratzinger personally confirmed to me that these two messages, of Fatima and Akita, are essentially the same." The same Catholic World News story further noted that "both Bishop Ito and Cardinal Ratzinger declared the messages and events in Akita to be of supernatural origin and labeled them "worthy of belief."

With these startling affirmations of Cardinal Ratzinger in mind we can consider what Our Lady of Akita said to Sister Agnes Katsuko Sasagawa on October 13, 1973, the very anniversary of the Miracle of the Sun, and let me quote this verbatim:
"As I told you, if men do not repent and better themselves, the Father will inflict a terrible punishment on all humanity. It will be a punishment greater than the deluge, such as one will never have seen before. Fire will fall from the sky and will wipe out a great part of humanity, the good as well as the bad, sparing neither priests nor faithful. The survivors will find themselves so desolate that they will envy the dead.

The only arms which will remain for you will be the Rosary and the Sign left by My Son. Each day recite the prayers of the Rosary. With the Rosary, pray for the Pope, the bishops and priests.

"The work of the devil will infiltrate even into the Church in such a way that one will see cardinals opposing cardinals, bishops against bishops.

The priests who venerate Me will be scorned and opposed by their confreres; churches and altars sacked; the Church will be full of those who accept compromises and the demon will press many priests and consecrated souls to leave the service of the Lord."

So, here we see the combination, in an approved Marian apparition, of two elements: material catastrophe and spiritual catastrophe. We see apostasy in the Church - also predicted by Our Lady of Good Success - accompanied by a cataclysmic event that chastises the whole world.

Now, as I just noted, Cardinal Ratzinger admitted to the former Vatican ambassador to the Philippines that the Message of Fatima and the Message of Akita are essentially the same.

Yet neither of the first two parts of the Fatima Secret nor the vision of the Third Secret published in 2000 say what Our Lady said at Akita. In fact, we have no words of Our Lady at all attached to the Third Secret vision.

We do see, however, flames descending toward earth from the hands of an avenging angel, and Our Lady turning back the flames as the angel cries "penance, penance, penance." I note the parallel that the uppermost angel in the apparition of Our Lady of Knock brandished a sword.

But will there come a time when Our Lady will no longer be able to turn back the consuming fire [and the sword] of Heaven's vengeance? This, apparently, is what Our Lady of Akita warns in 1973, 56 years to the day after the Miracle of the Sun.

Clearly, then, what makes the two apparitions - Fatima and Akita - "essentially the same" must be found in missing words of Our Lady of Fatima that correspond to those of Our Lady of Akita. These would have to be the same "words of the Virgin" that the Vatican suppressed in 1960, when it told the world that the Third Secret would not be revealed as everyone expected it would be.

FC: That is pretty stunning. But what of the precise question of whether the chastisement will include a world war, among other calamities to befall the Church and the world?

Father Kramer: Here we find some more pieces of the puzzle in Marian apparitions. I am referring to the messages of Our Lady to Sister Elena Aiello, who died in 1961. She was very renowned for the revelations that she received from Our Lady and was greatly esteemed by Pope Pius XII, even though perhaps many North Americans won't have heard of her.

Our Lady revealed to her that Russia would wage a sudden war, would overrun all of Europe. This, it would seem, is clearly what Pope John Paul II wanted to avoid by not divulging the Third Secret, as he said at Fulda, because it would encourage the communists to make certain moves - in other words, to wage war against the West.

FC: But what of the objection that Russia no longer poses such a threat, now that "communism has fallen."

Father Kramer: If you read the Russian publications, as I do, you see that in Russia itself there's no mystery as to what is taking place. We have a neo-Stalinist dictatorship taking shape, we have Russian journalists complaining about the dictatorship, openly asking the questions about why, if there is supposedly a democracy in Russia, Mr. Putin is blatantly and publicly planning for war against the Western democracies?

And, clearly, all the evidence points to the conclusion that Russia is preparing for war against the West. Putin openly boasts of Russia's new ICBMs that can change course mid-flight and avoid all anti-missile defenses. Russia is now very much in league with communist China, with which it has forged a massive military alliance, and with other still-communist nations of the world.

Even on the cabinet level in the United States government it has been recognized that Russia and China are the ones who are aiding terrorist states, because terrorism is simply a tactic that is being used to distract, weaken and lull the West to sleep concerning the real threat to its security.

On this point there is another amazing prophecy in the 19th Century that seems to sum up what's in the Third Secret. I do not suggest it is authoritative, but it fits in with the rest of the picture.

There was a book written in French, compiled by a priest in France by the name of Father Fatteccelli of Fatticioli. I have not actually read the text, but have heard it being read on audiotape. The name of the book is Day of Wrath: The Hand of God Upon An Empire. The revelations were made to an Armenian Jew, one Zachary, who was later baptized a Catholic. This book, published in the early 1850s, contains revelations (made to Zachary in the 1840s) concerning the precise dimensions of the communist empire, Russia and China and their satellites. It says that there would be the d'tente; that an agreement would be reached between the capitalist West and the Marxist East.

Then, says the prophecy, the communists would overcome the West, by firing their missiles - they would fire their missiles - and the word "missiles" was used in the 1840s! They would fire their missiles on the coasts of North America - from the direction of Russia and China - and the Western world would be brought into bondage, after which "the firstborn of hell will rule the world."

Again, I do not say the prophecy is authoritative, but only that it is consistent with the other evidence we have of the great catastrophes foretold in the Third Secret.

And this prophecy of Zachary would explain what Malachi Martin said on the Art Bell Show, as I mentioned before (see page 52). Malachi said then that there was something terribly horrifying in the Third Secret - more horrifying than World War III. And the horrifying thing Malachi Martin referred to was this: after Russia wins the war, there would be the appearance that the devil had defeated Christ.

FC: Perhaps this world war, this firing of nuclear missiles, is what Our Lady of Akita means by fire falling down from the sky and wiping out a great part of humanity. After all, Japan is the place where fire rained down from the sky at Hiroshima and Nagasaki.

Father Kramer: That seems logical, but it is not actually correct. The fire raining down from heaven will be a supernatural event, as foretold by both Sr. Elena Aiello and Blessed Anna Maria Taigi.

But now a further detail to complete our puzzle: the revelations to Anne Catherine Emmerich, who lived in the early 19th Century. She was beatified in October of 2004 by Pope John Paul II.

In the revelations made to Blessed Anne Catherine Emmerich, Our Lady reveals that there will be a false church of darkness, while the true Church continues to exist.

This false church will be an ecumenical church.

It will unite all the ecclesial communities and sects together.

And there will be a false pope and a true pope reigning at the same time, just as there was during the Great Western Schism in the 14th Century. Even the non-Christian religions will have some affiliation to this great worldwide universal so-called church.

Amazingly enough, in his apostolic letter on the Sillon Movement in France, Pope St. Pius X predicted exactly the emergence of this false religion when he spoke of "the great movement of apostasy being organized in every country for the establishment of a One-World Church which shall have neither dogmas, nor hierarchy, neither discipline for the mind, nor curb for the passions, and which, under the pretext of freedom and human dignity, would bring back to the world (if such a church could overcome) the reign of legalized cunning and force, and the oppression of the weak, and of all those who toil and suffer."

So, the coming global conflagration will be related to this false One-World Church arising to oppose the true Church.

FC: Would you be willing to prognosticate when all of this, including the world war, is going to come to pass?

Father Kramer: Well, here we go beyond the firm evidence of approved apparitions and into the realm of speculation.

Based on the reported prophecies of a German priest, a mystic, whose veracity is attested to by another German priest I regard as utterly trustworthy, we can surmise that the year 2008 will see the outbreak of war and 2011 the Consecration of Russia and the beginning of the period of peace spoken of by Our Lady of Fatima.

The period of chastisement may continue past 2011, but by 2013 the chastisement will have ended and this may be the actual year of the Triumph of the Immaculate Heart.

Now, obviously, we cannot mark our calendars and base our life and decisions on any of these dates, but it would be well to remember what Malachi Martin himself said back in 1997: everything will be finished in less than twenty years.

The way things are going in the Church and the world, one does not have to be a prophet, or consult any other revelations beyond the approved ones already given to us, to see that that prediction is very probable.

FC: But when, if ever, will the Third Secret be revealed?

Father Kramer: Of course, it will be revealed, for man cannot hide forever a secret confided by God Himself to His Blessed Mother for the benefit of the whole world. The question is not whether, but when it will be revealed at last.

Without claiming any kind of prophetic accuracy I can say that when I was in Fatima in 1991, I was informed that the Carmelites of Fatima had received the news from Sister Lucy and her fellow sisters at the convent in Coimbra that Our Lady had appeared to Sister Lucy not long before May of 1991 and told her that the Third Secret is going to be revealed during the course of a major war.

So, the war will break out, it will be a sudden war, it will be a blitzkrieg, and the true Church will be driven underground. But, at the beginning of this war, when the Pope realizes that keeping the Third Secret hidden no longer makes any sense, because the Russians have now made their move, he will reveal the missing text of the Third Secret.

If Pope Benedict is reigning at the time of this war, he will probably want to consecrate Russia after revealing the full Third Secret, but like King Louis XVI, he will not be able to do the Consecration in time because the calamities will strike too quickly. There won't be enough forewarning, so the Pope will not be able to organize it in time.

He will have to go into hiding. Perhaps Benedict will be the very Pope who flees a devastated Rome, as St. Pius X foresaw, and is finally hunted down as the Third Secret vision depicts - which God forbid that should happen. But if it happens, that Pope will be hunted and killed by the enemy's armed forces, just as we see in the vision.

FC: So, whoever this hunted Pope is, Benedict or some other Pope, it will not be he who consecrates Russia, in your view?

Father Kramer: On this point I would refer to the testimony of the Roman stigmatist, Antonio Ruffini.

Pope Pius XII authorized the blessing of a chapel on the spot where Ruffini received the stigmata on the Via Appia, and Father Tomaselli, the miracle worker, wrote a booklet about him - a short account of the life of Ruffini.

I myself knew Ruffini for many years. In the early 1990s Ruffini was asked point blank in his home: "Is John Paul II the Pope who is going to do the Consecration of Russia?" He answered: "No, it's not John Paul. It will not be his immediate successor either, but the one after that.

He is the one who will consecrate Russia." That is, Benedict's successor, during this time of world war and persecution of the Church, will be the one to do the Consecration at long last, and then the restoration and the triumph of the Immaculate Heart will begin.

FC: How would you sum all of this up?

Father Kramer: From the evidence we have discussed, this much at least seems clear: The Church will undergo a great apostasy among many of Her members, which is plainly already underway. Then there will be a world war in which much of the world's population will die, the Church will be persecuted as never before and driven underground, and Rome itself may possibly be devastated.

This is the scenario that fits perfectly the Third Secret vision, where the Pope is executed and prominent churchmen and lay people have been slaughtered in a half-ruined city.

And that is why Cardinal Ratzinger, when he spoke of the Third Secret in 1984, mentioned the dangers "to the faith and the life of the Christian, and therefore [the life of] the world." Both the Church and the world will suffer catastrophe. Given Cardinal Ratzinger's admission that Fatima and Akita are essentially the same message, no other conclusion seems reasonable.

So, when one considers the apparitions of Our Lady of Good Success, Our Lady of Fatima and Our Lady of Akita, the statements of John Paul II at Fulda, the admissions of Cardinal Ratzinger, of Cardinal Ciappi and the revelations of Malachi Martin, they all add up to the same thing: apostasy in the Church leading to a horrible global chastisement, with much of the world's population being extinguished almost instantaneously.

FC: Is there no hope, then?

Father Kramer: On the contrary, as Our Lady of Good Success said, there is great cause for hope, even if we do not avoid the worst happening. Indeed, Our Lady of Fatima Herself said that Her Immaculate Heart will triumph, no matter how late the Consecration of Russia is finally done.

Even if the worst happens, the formerly Catholic nations will rediscover their faith under persecution and in the midst of the world's desolation by war.

Then the Pope will consecrate Russia to the Immaculate Heart and Russia will be converted. The Asiatic and Islamic invaders will be driven out of Europe [Editor's Note: With the help of the converted Russian invaders. Cfr. Prophecy of St. John Bosco, as explained in Fatima: Tragedy and Triumph, pp. 319-355]. God will intervene and we will see then the triumph of the Immaculate Heart of Mary.

But the question remains: Since Our Lady's prophecies are still conditional, will we avoid the worst of those prophecies before Her Triumph occurs? Or will we have to suffer the full consequences first? The outcome depends entirely on the Pope and the bishops doing what Our Lady of Fatima requested, and that in turn depends upon the bishops, priests, religious, and lay people doing enough prayer and penance and reformation of their own lives.

[Denise]

The Fatima Crusader is owned and run by Nicholas Gruner who is suspended a divinis. This interview and opinion isn't worth a hill of beans from this schismatic group. Gruner has been thrown out of Fatima. He is a trouble maker that will not serve!

Anyone, even Mother Angelica, who believes that the whole secret wasn't given is calling our previous Holy Father and our present Holy Father a liar. Scarrier things have happened and no one kept the information from us. Read Revelations. Remember that he, Ratzinger, was the head of the Congregation that wrote this:

CONGREGATION
FOR THE DOCTRINE OF THE FAITH THE MESSAGE OF FATIMA

I looked up the statement by Mother Angelica and in fact she said this on a live EWTN show.
**********************************

Let us examine the Vatican's actual statement on this point within the Vatican's press release. "The Congregation for the Clergy, upon the mandate from a higher authority, wishes to state that Rev. Nicholas Gruner is under an 'a divinis' suspension, which has been confirmed by a definitive sentence of the Supreme Tribunal of the Apostolic Signature."

In short, Fr. Nicholas Gruner is suspended a divinis. According to canon 1333 §1, "Suspension, which can affect only clerics, prohibits: 1° all or some of the acts of the power of order; 2° all or some of the acts of the power of governance; [and] 3° the exercise of all or some of the rights or functions attaching to an office." Regardless of who initially imposed or declared the suspension against Fr. Gruner, the Apostolic Signatura upheld this penal sanction.
Pete Vere. Canon Lawyer
***************************************************

Statement on Father Nicholas Gruner

Author:
Congregation for the Clergy

The Congregation for the Clergy declares that the International Meeting on the topic, Peace in the World and the Immaculate Heart of Mary, scheduled for 8-12 October in Fatima, Portugal, and organized by Fr. Nicholas Gruner, has not been approved by the competent ecclesiastical authorities.

The Congregation also declares that the same Fr. Nicholas Gruner does not have faculties from the Diocese of Leiria-Fatima to perform ministerial acts.

Cardinal Jose T. Sanchez, prefect + Archbishop Crescenzio See, secretary

Declaration published on 4 October 1992 of English edition of L'Osservatore Romano.

[KevinSymonds]

I would love to tear apart Kramer and Gruner's ideologies. Yet, there is no need when a simple objective look at the evidence is taken--especially that 1980 Fulga, Germany claim.

http://www.kevinsymonds.com/grunerresp.html

Peace!
-Kevin

[MarieT]

thats why i originally posted this in the 'catholic issues of concern" with a "be not afraid" comment and another comment bout "..and on this rock i will build my church and not even the gates of hell will prevail against it"

scary stuff

[KarlB]

Isn't it generally accepted that visions of specific events, that have been accepted by the Church as credible, are expected to be realized within the lifetime of the person who received the revelation. That alone would seem to indicate the Fatima secrets run their course.. although its prescriptions and warnings are obviously still relevant.

[KevinSymonds]

1. The Third Secret has been revealed and whenever you hear someone say that it hasn't they are nuts and are calling Pope John Paul II, Sister Lucia and even Pope Benedict liars.

That means Mother Angelica is a liar? Whoa!!

No, seriously though, all of this stuff can be found in Kramer's book "The Devil's Final Battle." I've read a good portion of it (I actually own the A.R.C.) and think it to be full of fluff-n-stuff. You want to talk about anachronisms galore! Read this book to find out how NOT to argue a point!

At any rate, Karl, Fatima is not over. Sister Lucia said just before her death that we are only halfway through the Fatima story. More, much more comes and I think Donal Foley does a good job investigating this in his "Marian Apparitions..." book.

Peace!
-Kevin

[Denise]

That means Mother Angelica is a liar? Whoa!! Razz

Kevin, you misunderstood! No one called her a liar. If she claimed, and she did on a live show, that the 3rd Secret had not been revealed in full, then she is calling the two Popes a liar. They both said that the whole secret had been revealed. So did Sr. Lucia

Denise

[Denise]

Let me make something very clear. EWTN has been of good service to many people and there is much good that comes from the program. In the past few years there have been questionable people on the program pushing questionable agendas and people, and then there have been people in charge of different things there that say things that are not true. Too many fingers in that pie if you ask me and no one did but I say it anyway.

I have some personal emails saved exactly as I received them from one of the head honchos there. Let me just say, NOT GOOD! I will share them with you but first something has to be finished once and for all. Either he will eat crow or I will eat crow. My eating crow will have been from being obedient and his will have been from disobedience.

Denise

Here is what Mother Angelica said on her showMay 16, 2001:

As for the Secret, well I happen to be one of those individuals who thinks we didn’t get the whole thing. I told ya! I mean, you have the right to your own opinion, don’t you, Father? There, you know, that’s my opinion. Because I think it’s scary. And I don’t think the Holy See is going to say something that does not happen, that might happen. And then what does it do if it doesn’t happen? I mean the Holy See cannot afford to make prophecies, because. I know, —I don’t know—my funeral . . . It’s not me, so don’t look at me . . . Something’s gonna happen soon. It could be twenty years before it happens. So to God “soon” could be a thousand years. We don’t know that.

Here is the then Cardinal Ratzinger's Commentary which totally refutes what she said.
Commentary by Cardinal Ratzinger]

[Lori]

Kevin,

I am the one who wrote this so let me explain.

1. The Third Secret has been revealed and whenever you hear someone say that it hasn't they are nuts and are calling Pope John Paul II, Sister Lucia and even Pope Benedict liars.

I never call Mother Angelica a liar I just said she was WRONG! I make mistakes all of the time. Mother Angelica made a mistake here. She is not infallible.

Blessings,

Lori

[KevinSymonds]

You know, I placed a good 20-30 seconds to weigh out the best emoticon to communicate my sarcasm.

I am sorry that it wasn't clear. From now on, any sarcasm will have the emoticon

Peace!
-KJS

[Lori]

[Denise]

After reading this thread, Rick sent this to me.

Secret of Fatima

It dumbfounds me how anyone can believe the words of Rev. Nicholas Gruner, who is under an 'a divinis' suspension, which has been confirmed by a definitive sentence of the Supreme Tribunal of the Apostolic Signature. Likewise, how can anyone believe in anyone who works with him. These same people in the past have even claimed that it was not Lucia in the Convent in Coimbra. They only changed their views after her death.

Father Gruner had an opportunity to visit Lucia face to face so that she could tell him directly that he was wrong, but instead he deliberately came late so that his appointment overlapped with Corry Aqino, President of the Philippines at the time. He then made a major fuss outside the convent claiming he was not allowed in. This entire episode was described to me by the nuns at the convent. They all think he is crazy and pray for his conversion.

As for the secret, it was totally revealed to the world. Even the actual handwritten copy by Lucia was placed on the Vatican web site with her signature on it. There is no more to it. As for the last line regarding Portugal not loosing the faith there is no "etc" just three dots ... instead of one. Anyone who thinks this is something more she wrote is out of touch with reality.

Lucia said there is no more to the secret and that is that. I make no claim to any special knowledge to this situation but I have lived 6 years in Fatima going to the Convent of Coimbra every week. I know all the nuns and I have seen Lucia 11 times. She reviewed some of my articles about Fatima and talked with me about them. I arranged the meeting with Lucia and Mel Gibson and brought the video "The Passion of Christ" to the convent. And finally I attended Lucia's Funeral. I know and talked with all Lucia's living relatives, and lived 100 yards from her home. Any question I had of Lucia or her relatives was answered without a problem.

As to my own opinions about the secret, it is not necessary to believe Cardinal Ratzinger's interpretation of the secret. I personally do not believe that the shooting of John Paul II is the same as the death of a pope in the secret, nor do I believe that the history revealed is over yet. But to put it straight, there is no other secret not revealed.
Rick Salbato