Kairos magazine (story on medj)....tsk tsk

[MarieT]

For those of you who dont know, Kairos (magazine 'written by Catholic Archdiocese of Melbourne) is supposedly the leading catholic magazine here in melbourne.

A few times some of our members have contacted Kairos with regards to some questionable articles they have printed...many to do with medj. advertising (the site where the local Bishop has said the sightings are not the Holy Mother appearing there and its not a legit Catholic 'apparition')

Kairos magazine has in the past posted articles advertising pilgrimages to medj despite Rome stating that official pilgrimages to Medj are forbidden.

Now to top it off, this publication has posted a story by a respected priest in regards to him undertaking a trip to medj.

I dont purchase this publication, basically because i find the stories boring (sorry guys), but a parishioner passed me a photocopy of an article of Fr Dowlings report when he returned from medj. i went to drop it in the waste basket but she pleaded with me to 'just read it pleeeez"

For those of you whom dont know, i'm constantly stopped by parishioners to discuss the medj phenomena, and they always bring articles to my attention and ask for my opinion.

so i did read this article...grimacing and hesitantly....

sadly Fr Dowling (unlike Fr Paul and we've read his thoughts on this on this forum) ..but sadly fr Dowling undertook this pilgrimage despite the Vatican stating that official pilgrimages are forbidden.
Fr Dowling writes:

Until now I have resisted visiting Medjugorje in Bosnia–Herzegovina, where it is reported that Mary has been appearing to a group of seers since 1981.

I have been waiting for the Church’s official sanction, which has not as yet been forthcoming. .

the official sanction 'constat de non supernaturalitate"...not of God, not Divine, not the Holy Mother appearing there has long been stated.

Bishop Peric the local Bishop went a step further and gave the constat de non supernaturalitate. This means that there is positive proof this is a hoax. This is an extremely strong statement, and goes well beyond the usual judgment that the Church calls on the Ordinary to give.

Fr Dowling needs to contact Cardinal Pell whom refused one of the medj alleged seers from speaking in Catholic churches in his archdiocese because its not approved (see article here on semperfi apparition discernment: Cardinal Pell forbids medj seer....)

or to visit the local Bishops official Catholic website.

Fr Dowling continues:

One lady from Melbourne who regularly takes groups there expressed the opinion that the Church won’t make a pronouncement while these reported apparitions are still believed to be taking place

Again, the good Fr Dowling needs to contact Card. Pell on the issue and not the "one lady" he quotes here, as well as contact the local bishop or visit his official website where the hoax is exposed. The pronouncement has been given time and time again.

My twin sister, Mary, has long cherished the wish to go to Medjugorje, and so, when I was seriously ill last year with cancer, I promised her that if I got well I would take her there once I had recovered. Now that I am cancer free, the time has come for me to fulfil my promise.

Accordingly, she and I will join a pilgrimage group that flies out of London in October.

kairos magazine

"will join a pilgrimage group" ?

On March 24, 1984, the Commission on the Medjugorje events also issued a warning. Unfortunately all this remained fruitless.

Then, in the month of October of the same year, the Yugoslavian Bishops' Conference issued an order prohibiting official pilgrimages to Medjugorje; and an official pilgrimage was defined as any group organized to come to Medjugorje. This did not help either. Later, on May 13, 1985, the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith sent a special letter to the Italian Bishops' Conference asking the bishops to discourage organized pilgrimages... as well as all forms of propaganda. This did not bring any results either. Finally, when the second Commission was set up, His Eminence Cardinal Franjo Kuharic, and the Ordinary of Mostar, declared on behalf of the Yugoslavian Bishops' Conference in their January 9, 1987 press release: "For that reason, it is not permitted either to organize pilgrimages or to arrange other manifestations motivated by the supernatural character which might be attributed to the Medjugorje events." This was said by the highest authority in the Church, and this should not be overlooked as if nothing had been said.
http://members.tripod.com/~chonak/docum ... zanic.html

i cannot find the article of the photocopy i was given online and sadly its long been shredded . The article from kairos above was fr dowling accounting he was going to go on a medj pilgrimage.

thanks be to God for Fr Dowlings healing of cancer BEFORE he left for his medj pilgrimage.

Lord grant us discernment
marie

[Denise]

Why don't you contact Cardinal Pell? This priest is being disobedient to a direct order from Rome no less.

Sis

[MarieT]

I guess i feel sorry for Fr. Dowling. He's a good priest...i've chatted with him many a time after cathedral masses (when he was stationed there).

He's heartfelt account of having to face cancer and battle it and face his mortality etc etc, which must have been a traumatic time for him and deeply touched me.

thanks be to God he was healed, but i'm just concerned the road he took after the healing...ie deciding to go to medj because he promised his sister if he was cured he would go.

i'm saddened particularly that not only did he go to medj, but he reported back about the good fruits, which may lead many to believe that medj is an accepted Catholic apparition site

....and yes there are good fruits there because people like him go in faith and trust and that faith shines out for others to see. Fr dowling recounts he was asked to say mass there...which he proceeded to do.

The danger is in him returning and talking about his experiences which may lead many Catholics here to start accepting the fake seers alleged sightings etc...not in the good fruits themselves.

By his own statements, he believes that the church hasnt decided on medj yet and just taking their time. I pray something will bring this to his light.

blessings
marie

[Denise]

Well, the "direct order" was more from the Bishop of Mostar - who, as Successor to the Apostles has the jurisdiction in HIS Diocese, directed that no "official" pilgrimages be made to Medjugorje which had as their object the affirmation that the BVM was appearing there.

You are quite right. I was referring to the document below, from Rome. We are aware of the duties of a Bishop and that he is the "little Pope of his own See" as the Holy Fr. said to Bp. Peric during his Ad limina.

As far as informing Card. Pell...if one had a good relationship with him and informs him of certain things and he came out with some kind of generic statement, maybe people would listen to him because he is highly respected. I never said he had jurisdiction. He certainly has none in the USA but when he speaks, I listen. He is looked up to here.

God bless
Denise

March 1996: CDF letter to Bp. Taverdet

SACRED CONGREGATION FOR THE DOCTRINE OF THE FAITH

Vatican City, March 23, 1996, Prot. No. 154/81-01985

Your Excellency,

In your letter of February 14, 1996 you inquired what is the present position of the Church regarding the alleged "apparitions in Medjugorje" and whether it is permitted to the Catholic faith to go there for pilgrimage.

In reference to that it is my honor to make known to you that, regarding the authenticity of the apparitions in question, the Bishops of the former Yugoslavia confirmed in their Declaration of April 10, 1991 published in Zadar:

". . .On the basis of investigation up till now it cannot be established that one is dealing with supernatural apparitions and revelations. However, the numerous gatherings of the faithful from different parts of the world, who are coming to Medjugorje prompted both by motives of belief and certain other motives, require the attention and pastoral care in the first place of the bishop of the diocese and of the other bishops with him so that in Medjugorje and everything related to it a healthy devotion toward the Blessed Virgin Mary would be promoted in conformity with the teaching of the Church.

For that purpose the bishops shall issue separate appropriate liturgical-pastoral directives. Likewise by means of their Commission they shall further follow and investigate the total event in Medjugorje."

The result from this in what is precisely said is that official pilgrimages to Medjugorje, understood as a place of authentic Marian apparitions, are not permitted to be organized either on the parish or on the diocesan level, because that would be in contradiction to what the Bishops of former Yugoslavia affirmed in their forementioned Declaration.

Kindly accept, your Excellency, an expression of my profoundly devoted affection!

+ Tarcisio Bertone

[MarieT]

But, private pilgrimages are not prohibited. I am not aware whether Fr. Dowling's pilgrimage was "private" or "organized on a parish or on the diocesan level".

Sean O L

hiya Sean,
my original post states that he went with a group.

Fr Dowling in the article above states :

Accordingly, she and I will join a pilgrimage group that flies out of London in October.

group is defined also in that original post as :

...the Yugoslavian Bishops' Conference issued an order prohibiting official pilgrimages to Medjugorje; and an official pilgrimage was defined as any group organized to come to Medjugorje.

blessings
marie

[MarieT]

the original purpose of my article was mainly to discuss the magazine kairos....and some of its questionable stories and advertising.

a catholic magazine printing an article from a well known priest promoting medj could have bad repercussions on the faithful and mislead them into thinking it was ok to go there in groups (forbidden by church sanction). Statements from fr dowling, a respected former cathedral priest like:

I have been waiting for the Church’s official sanction, which has not as yet been forthcoming. .

is misleading and his actions and then publicly writing about them in the magz of catholic magazines 'kairos' is a source of worry for me IMO (IMO= in my opinion).

marie

[Denise]

Sean OL , if you read through this whole forum, which is quite a lot of material, we have addressed all that you have said.

Of course Catholics are allowed to attend any parish in the world and receive sacraments in a parish that is in union with Rome. We have said that over and over here. We are on the same page.

Also, please see
Medjugorje, Just the Facts I have had several personal communications with Bishop Peric, some of which you will find on that webpage.

I have also frequented your web site now for many years. If you would like to add the link to your profile it would certainly be "an approved" link.

Blessings
Denise

[Denise]

But "constat de non supernaturality" was the "personal opinion" of Bishop Peric - and was NEVER official!

If it wasn't official can you enlighten us on these words of the good bishop

"As the local bishop, I maintain that regarding the events of Medjugorje, on the basis of the investigations and experience gained thus far throughout these last 25 years, the church has not confirmed a single apparition as authentically being the Madonna," he said. He then called on the alleged visionaries and "those persons behind the messages to demonstrate ecclesiastical obedience and to cease with these public manifestations and messages in this parish."

"In this fashion they shall show their necessary adherence to the church, by placing neither private apparitions nor private sayings before the official position of the church," he said.

Hum...I wonder what Fr. Dowling would be going there to see?

[MarieT]

However:
MarieT wrote:

group is defined also in that original post as :

...the Yugoslavian Bishops' Conference issued an order prohibiting official pilgrimages to Medjugorje; and an official pilgrimage was defined as any group organized to come to Medjugorje.

Ummm. NO! Your "quote is truncated and "interpreted".

Here is the EXACT quote:

"...official pilgrimages to Medjugorje, understood as a place of authentic Marian apparitions, are not permitted to be organized either on the parish or on the diocesan level"

Hiya Sean,
actually the comparitive quote you refer to isnt the one I used.

My quote defines the term 'official pilgrimmage to medj" by the Yugoslavian Bishops Conference whereas your quote states that they're not permitted.

Now, MY point is: Was Fr. Dowling's pilgrimage "in a group" an "official pilgrimage" if it was NOT "organized either on a parish or on the diocesan level."

According to the Yugoslavian Bishops Conference it IS an organised group. I have stated their definition of "organised group."

reiterating

...the Yugoslavian Bishops' Conference issued an order prohibiting official pilgrimages to Medjugorje; and an official pilgrimage was defined as any group organized to come to Medjugorje

note the term "any group" organised to come to medj"

I believe that it is vital to be precise, and to know exactly the status of the "pilgrimage" before making judgements.

as do i, thats why i went to the trouble of looking up the term "official pilgrimmage" as defined by the Bishops conference and posted it here.

By the way - I have a bit to say about my opposition to Medjugorje at my web-site: http://jloughnan.tripod.com/visions.htm
Kind regards,

Sean O L

way to go Sean....the more this hoax of medj is brought to light, the better for mislead Catholics. I will get around to reading it soon i hope.

blessings
marie

[MarieT]

No evidence is provided that his "pilgrimage" satisfied the definition of an "official pilgrimage."

Hi Sean,

see my previous post on the Bishops conference's definition of what satisfies an "official" pilgrimmage. This term was actually stated in my first post from the beginning to highlight its definition.

If you believe that it isnt an appropriate definition, perhaps you could contact the Bishops Conference via their official website and query them that you dont like their definition.

Granted that "Kairos" DOES accept advertisements from Harvest Tours (a Tourist Agency promoting Religious tours - including Medjugorje). But the advertisements are run in "Kairos" on a commercial basis - they get money for them.

If THIS is to be condemned - then Cardinal Pell's "Catholic Weekly" ought also be condemned - for it also runs adverts promoting pilgrimages to Medj.

I havent heard of Cardinal Pell's "Catholic Weekly" so therefore cannot comment on it. One thing that came out from the Kairos advertising medj, is that after they were contacted that advertising medj as an authentic place of apparition of the Blessed Mother, they are going against Church sanctions. The following subscription got over the problem by adding the words "where the alleged sightings of the Holy Mother are occurring."

It seems to me, therefore to be selective condemnation? Furthermore, as pointed out, Fr. Dowling's obedience is to his Archbishop - not to the Archbishop of Sydney.

Nope not selective. I have not read or seen the publication you refer to so therefore could not comment on it. Is that the other states publication? I know in melbourne we have kairos. Is the "Catholic weekly" Sydney's Catholic publication?

I can only comment on what i have seen or what is handed to me. As i mentioned in my first post, i'm not a "kairos" subscriber (nor will i be in the near future unless changes are made to their publication), the article was handed to me by a parishioner, ..i did a search for it on kairos site...but only found fr dowling's previous mention of going on the group pilgrimmage, but could not find the followup on medj upon his return to oz.

Fr Dowling writes:

I have been waiting for the Church’s official sanction, which has not as yet been forthcoming. .

Of course, he confuses the issue - for the Church Authorities have allowed confusion to reign. But, he is also right: "official sanction" has NOT yet been forthcoming'", and I am confident that it will never be forthcoming!

i dont believe the church authorities have done anything inappropriate. They know better than any of us the appropriate procedures that take place when alleged apparition claims come forward.......

ie...that the 'court of first instance' is the Local Ordinary. I believe they are satisfied with the Local Bishop's decision as well as the numerous following decisions by commissions set up to investigate the issues.

His Holiness Pope Benedict 16 stated himself his amazement that medj paranoia was still ongoing despite the Church's findings....ie when Bishop Peric recently met with him and the medj issue was brought up. One who doesnt believe this exchange took place is accusing the Local Bishop of lying.

Another point .....an example that Rome accepts the local Bishop's power of authority in this medj matter is the recent forbidding of the Papal Preacher to hold a retreat there at medj after he was invited to.

the official sanction 'constat de non supernaturalitate"...not of God, not Divine, not the Holy Mother appearing there has long been stated.

Bishop Peric the local Bishop went a step further and gave the constat de non supernaturalitate. This means that there is positive proof this is a hoax. This is an extremely strong statement, and goes well beyond the usual judgment that the Church calls on the Ordinary to give.

But "constat de non supernaturality" was the "personal opinion" of Bishop Peric - and was NEVER official!

its official enough for the Papal preacher to be forbidden going to Medj. If they accept it, why cant lay people? Yes it was his personal opinion, but it is binding. Write to the Holy Fr. and ask him

Fr Dowling needs to contact Cardinal Pell whom refused one of the medj alleged seers from speaking in Catholic churches in his archdiocese because its not approved (see article here on semperfi apparition discernment: Cardinal Pell forbids medj seer....)

But, the Cardinal does employ Fr. Tim Deeter, and allow "Catholic Weekly" to accept commercial advertising of Medjugorje pilgrimages!?

The matter is quite complex.

Sean O L

Sean, i dont know who this Fr. Tim Deeter that you keep referring to is.

As for the matter of the Cardinal "allowing advertising of medj pilgrimages" in his publication, i wonder if he even knows about it. I dont even know of the publication so therefore cant comment. I will say that if they covered themselves as kairos changed their ad to "where the allegedsightings are " and people go privately then thats a different matter.

We know for a fact that Cardinal Pell refused to allow the alleged medj 'seer' from talking from our catholic churches here. This is not the actions of a Church authority that approves of medj. This the action of a church authority that follows and accepts the decision of the Local ordinary as did the papal preacher when he changed his plans for medj after being informed of the local Bishop's disapproval of the 'sightings'

blessing
marie

[MarieT]

Hum...I wonder what Fr. Dowling would be going there to see?

a demon no doubt .....sorry for the scare tactics but recall the alleged apparition where one of the medj 'seers' said that she saw the devil and then it supposedly changed into the 'holy mother' which told her she had to do that to show them....

i dont think the real Holy Mother would go that far IMO.

I believe that (if she did see something) the medj 'seer' gotta glimpse of the entity's real form....this entity that they have been bowing to for the last quarter of a century and misleading people to bowing to and paying homage that is only reserved to our Lord.

This is a serious matter indeed and not one of "whats it to you if someone else believes in medj"? as a priest once said to me.

marie